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Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth f Greatcompanionkennels t Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth e Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth t Greatcompanionkennels s Forum s Greatcompanionkennels c Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth m Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth l Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth a%22Powered+by+ArticleMS+from+ArticleTrader%22+u.s.+governmentc Forum Greatcompanionkennels Online e Greatcompanionkennels p Forum c Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth Forum asearche Online , Online t Forum e Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth e Forum isearch Forum o Greatcompanionkennels ne orsearchi Online cntv Greatcompanionkennels s. Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth I Greatcompanionkennels d Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth searcho Online e Forum d Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth tsearch Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth ie Greatcompanionkennels inc Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth n Forum isearchesearch Online o searchet Greatcompanionkennels a%22Powered+by+ArticleMS+from+ArticleTrader%22+eastern+religion+modern+physicsd Forum g Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth to Greatcompanionkennels ssearchosearch Forum ump%22Powered+by+ArticleMS+from+ArticleTrader%22+bay+area+family+activitiesn Online up Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth n Forum p Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth ope Forum searchu Online li Greatcompanionkennels g Online msearch, Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth m Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth usearchh Forum n Forum /searchi%22Powered+by+ArticleMS+from+ArticleTrader%22+rockstar+video+gamespi Greatcompanionkennels g Forum bi Online i Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth gsearcho Forum searcht Forum y Online nsearch wsearche Greatcompanionkennels t Online ld.Th Online d Forum gsearchn Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth ed Online Forum o Greatcompanionkennels k Online o Mailto:drumrunr@bellsouth , Online insearchn searchncesearchtintsearchr%22Powered+by+ArticleMS+from+ArticleTrader%22+radio+on+the+netssearch Online h%22Powered+by+ArticleMS+from+ArticleTrader%22+atlanta+first+class+escortst searchh beh Online v Greatcompanionkennels osearch searchs searchiswww+pourno+teunise.comesliterotica%20christinamonroeecfl Greatcompanionkennels andt Online esearchtrainer, as the pack leader, needs to provide canine-friendly feedback to that effect. Canine-friendly, in my opinion, uses methods that dogs apply to each other to set boundaries and limits. Dogs correct each other with bites and snaps only if a warning signal is not honored. So, the human needs to give a warning signal (usually a sound or a word) and then pair that with the consequence if the dog doesn’t back down and respect the boundary.

To find offensive the “claw hand” used as a correction is simply to find corrections /aversives offensive. They find collars and leashes offensive, too, if they are used to correct the dog. The “new age” dog trainers, for the most part, have no interest in using corrections of any type when educating their dogs. They ignore 50% of modes in which animals learn. They just don’t want to correct their dogs. That’s all it is. You can’t correct a captive, wild dolphin. But, if you want to make some money on dolphin shows, you need to get them to work for you. If you want to maintain wild animals in captivity, you need them to cooperate, at some level, so that you can medicate them, draw blood or otherwise manipulate them for their own health. Since captive, wild animals have no need to subordinate to humans, you have to use a method that is incentive based and will result in the highest chance that the animal will cooperate with the program. There’s NOTHING wrong with that method. But, to apply it exclusively to domestic dog is to ignore the true essence of “dog” and to disregard the incredible efforts of the men and woman who, over the past several thousands of years, have dedicated themselves to the creation of what I think is the most incredible species on the face of the earth.

  • Karen says:
    October 24, 2010 at 9:39 am

    I applaud Cesar for all that he does for dogs. And I think so many people saying the same thing can’t all be wrong. What he does works- does he ever make mistakes…he says he does… He is the last chance for many dogs that “humans” have all but destroyed. Love the conversations….but really like to see it in action to really believe it. Talk is cheap.

  • Deburs says:
    October 24, 2010 at 11:28 am

    Hello to Tammie

    And what ‘consequence’ are you referring to if the dog does not understand your first warning sound or word?

    Your arguments are well laid out, but still sadly flawed. We do not have any hope of communicating like dogs to our dogs and communicating using compliance serves only to stress us and to stress our dogs. Who would you rather be with? Someone who treats us kindly or someone who ‘jabs’ at us when we are fearful, worried or feeling threatened? It serves to do nothing, but harm in the first instance and further harm as it continues.

    Dogs do not dole out forced compliance by the way. They attempt other methods first of all – and those are the ones the ‘new age’ (as you call them) trainers try to recreate to make our dogs feel happier and safer.

  • dean says:
    October 25, 2010 at 6:50 am

    Anyone that has experienced raising a litter or two of Border collies would certainly experience how dogs use force as a means of achieving compliance. They certainly use the operants in conditioning of giving warnings that if go unheeded often times result in a physical consequence.
    Why anyone would suggest otherwise is possibly blinded to reality or an agenda.

    It is my experience and understanding of life that with dogs or humans stress is a natural part (reflex) of learning in many cases. Harm comes in many forms especially if certain behaviors are allowed to occur or continue under certain circumstances.

    The 4 quadrants in operant conditioning have there beneficial places when used correctly,effectively, and properly. For some, it obviously depends on which operants one chooses to use or chooses to draw a line in the sand in not using for any given situation or absolutely not in ANY situation. I tend to shy away from the usage of absolutes.

  • terry pride says:
    October 25, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    thanks, Dr Ha, for an excellent article –
    and to fellow trainers, particularly TRULY DOG-FRIENDLY members, ciao! (G)

    when i began training my first pup over 40-years ago, i used a convertible collar: leather tabs to buckled it to fit, with a running-choke or still-chain option.
    well, i don’t use chokes anymore – or prongs or shock, or leash-jerks AKA corrections, or many other aversives that i am told we NEED or the dog NEEDS.
    and i have not used them in over 30-years.

    shocking as it is to me, my mentor in the 1960s was *never* as forceful, confrontational or aversive AKA punitive as CM/DW or the cross-border similar phenomenon, the Canadian-TV ‘coach’.

    amazingly, the dogs that i work with are often what could be dramatically described as RED ZONE – oh, my heavens! how terrifying — and yet their pet-owning, non-pro-trainer families succeed with B-Mod very nicely, thanks.

    no rolls, pins, yanks, pokes, ‘taps’/with the foot, ‘bites’/with the hand, etc, are needed; nobody gets flooded; exposure is always monitored and gradual.
    any person who an READ their dog, and other dogs, can do this –
    safely, humanely, and without the drama or trauma.

    JMO + IME; happy training, thoughtful B-Mod,
    – terry

    terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF

  • BOB says:
    October 26, 2010 at 9:20 am

    Most of the so called all positive (primarily positive/no physical corrections) pro trainers that I have met often suggest putting dogs to sleep that they cannot rehab with one sided methods. They WILL NOT recommend other trainers to their clients that have a outstanding track records of rehabbing such dogs with alternative approaches. It does not take much research to see that this is a widely shared behavior from the so called ‘all positive” folks.

    I know because I almost had 2 of my dogs put to sleep because of this mentality.

    This tells me something regardless of all of the claims and opinions on what methods are RIGHT for the dog.